1857 Patent Sarven Hubs Rebuilt # 2 – & special guests!
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1857 Patent Sarven Hubs Rebuilt # 2 – & special guests!

August 25, 2019


last week we worked through some of the
steps on what it takes to fit new hub cores into these old flanges of the
sarven style hub, but before we press the flanges on I need to mortise the hubs
for the spokes so I’m going to do that next. We’re going to jig it up on my hub
mortising jig, onto the new mortiser that we have built and I’m going to mortise
these for an inch and a quarter spokes. These will have a 5/16 tenon. Now we’ve
looked briefly at this indexing jig in past videos, but this is designed to turn
10, 12, 14 and 16 spoke spacings. Now since there are eight rivets and
sixteen spokes, each of the eight rivets are designed to go through the joint of
every other spoke. By doing this, that one rivet locks two spokes at once, so I’m
going to tap this into place, down to where it feels solid, then I’m going to
actually take it over to the press and push it back out so you can see
where we have our points of contact that we talked about last week when we
turned the core. Now I don’t normally do this step, but
just so you can see that four points of contact, well actually two on this first
flange, up against the spokes and then out on the end of the core where, again,
it comes into the contact with the flanges, but it in between those two points there
doesn’t need to be any contact. So once the flanges are on, what I need
is a pilot hole right through the center of this hub core. It allows me to mount
it up onto my stand, so when I put one spoke in each hub this gives me a handle,
so to speak, that I can keep this hub under control when I drill the hole
through the center. I’m going to put a 7/8 hole right through the middle. Now there’s really nothing accurate
about this hole, it just has to go clear through, and has to mount up on my
wheel stand. This hole will actually get trued up after the wheel is built and I
put it on the boring machine. Now these smaller sarven spokes generally come in
eight inch increments, and as I stated before, these are one and a quarter inch
sarven spokes, but they really never fit. These shoulders are at twenty two and a
half degrees, but as they come, they’re usually kind of rough, so I do finish
sand them. I measure the distance of the flange because I want the point of
the shoulder, where the throat of the spoke and the face of the shoulder comes,
to about an eighth of an inch out from the flange, so I’m going to mark these.
Then when I put them all down here you can see the variations in the factory
finish. They are anything but uniform, so I mark them all out and then I’ll run
them over the sander and kind of make them uniform. That way they look a whole
lot better once they’re in the hub. Well fortunately these weren’t real far
off so it doesn’t take too long just to kind of make them symmetrical and
uniform to where they fit a little better. Now part of the purpose of the design of
the sarven hub is that all the spokes shoulder up and support each other,
whereas on a common hub they are all separate & individual. So if we look back,
these two rusty hubs are the ones that we are working with right now, but you’ll
also notice there are four other black sarven hubs right behind. Well these
other four hugs are the same size as these two hubs that we just put together.
I put my calipers on these two and then compare them to one of these other four
hubs you can see they are exactly the same size flange, however these two sets
the sarven hubs will show the difference that two different companies
can take the same flanges and build two different sizes of wheels. This is the
inch and a quarter, and when I try to fit it into the second set of hubs it’s just
too small. The second set is designed for an inch and 3/8 spoke. Well with an inch
and three-eighths, the wedge is wider than the inch and a quarter, so I have to
modify these inch and three-eighths in thickness of the wedge down to the same
thickness as an inch and a quarter while remaining an inch and three-eighths
through the main head of this spoke. So since I already have the inch and a
quarter spacing set up on the sander for the inch and a quarter spoke, I’m going
to take these inch and three-eighths and I’m going to take the wedge thickness of
the inch and three-eighths, which is too wide, down to the inch and a quarter size, but in the process of doing this you’ll
see that the length of the face of the wedge becomes longer as compared to the
face of the inch-and-a-quarter. Well the flange depth from the core to
the edge of the flange is still in that one inch area, the same as the first two
hubs. So now I have to take and rethroat these spokes so that they are down to the
same position of the inch and a quarter. So where I had just a little adjustment
to do on the inch and a quarters, now I have a lot of adjustments to do to make
these inch and three-eighths spokes to fit the exact same flange as the inch and a
quarter. So there’s been a number of questions
and comments in the comment section, which I always appreciate, but the
question has been asked, well when you have a standard set of flanges why don’t
you just make everything the same? Well the case was back in those days, not so
different than today, there was a company that made certain parts and multiple
companies bought those parts and then designed and built their own wagons and
carriages accordingly, so even though some of the parts were universal, they
varied from manufacturer to manufacturer and how they were put together in their
production line. So that’s part of the challenge of what I get today, is I get
to work through all these variations, which seem like you should all be the
same, but they seldom are. Well there’s another unique thing that’s kind of been
popping up the last couple summers, since I’ve been putting these videos up. I have
the privilege of getting to meet a lot of folks that are out on the road, on
vacation, and stop by and say hi. And sometimes I have the camera running when
people stop by and, well, I happen to actually catch a few, but whether I have
the camera on or not, I really appreciate the folks that are willing to sign their
name down onto a guestbook that we have. It’s kind of fun to keep track of who
all shows up, so just a quick thanks for all those that take the time out of
their day and on their travels and their vacations for stopping by. It really makes
our day and we’ve met some great folks. I really do appreciate it! So thank you for all you folks who stop by, and all you folks at home that
keep on watching. I apprec iate it.

Only registered users can comment.

  1. I always appreciate your videos I am a bladesmith. I appreciate your problem-solving abilities, your work ethic, and how you strive for the best job you can do. It's an inspiration and I appreciate it

  2. Always measure and fit instead of hoping it works. 🙂 There are some high level engineers that I've worked with that never seemed to catch a mistake on a drawing of "fitted" parts and would wind up scrapping a lot of material. 🙂

  3. Aqui no Brasil também tem oficinas que fabricam e fornecem manutenções em carruagem. ótimo video..Obrigado

  4. Air hose with nozzle, attached to the mortising machine pointing down on the work and operated with a foot pedal will save you from huffing and puffing the chips away.

  5. Always a pleasure to watch. I am doing something with my 1940 Ford while my shop laptop is showing your video. Peace Brother.

  6. Watching you work gives me a great appreciation of the effort which goes into a wheel. I believe I understand that you buy spokes ready made, true? Then you have a significant amount of hand work to make them fit properly. The result is outstanding. I hope someday to be able to place my name into your guest book. It will be a great honor to be able to do so.

  7. Dave, I'm the one that should thank you for letting me visit. I had a wonderful time , and really enjoyed the stories from your friend, the racer. I'm sorry, but I"ve forgotten his name. Thank you , again.

  8. Dave, not that I get engrossed in your great videos, but found myself trying to blow away wood chips when you were driving stuff on this one! Keep it up, this outfit really enjoys watching you work your wonders.
    Thanks

  9. Really interesting info about the hubs. I'll wager you never thought that one day you would be a tv star with your own tourist attraction…..thanks for sharing, keep up the excellent work..

  10. Great videos, all of them. Watching this, it looks as if the spokes are straight in. Is there no dish on this type of wheel? Thanks.

  11. Thanks for all the great entertaining videos and HISTORY videos you have shown. Your work ethics are remarkable.

  12. Restored a pickaxe and a cutter mattock this month (dissolved rust and painted). I ended up making a handles out of a dead tree. It was fun. It is believed to be my great grandfather's, so they're either about 100 years old or 1940's vintage. Could help but thinking about gold digging (been watching Death Valley Days).

  13. I am not going to RUN off at the mouth this time Mr. Dave, I am just going to say that I am going to go along with all the other people and say that I do not know why, but I just sat back this time, kept my big O mouth shut and TOTALLY enjoyed this episode. O-ya just one observation ???, was that wood as tough as it looked when you were working it (DRILLING) ?? Much respect from this old Texas Boy Mr. Dave. RA

  14. Interesting to understand how secondary vendors would manufacture various parts, while the carriage shop/factory concentrated on building the end product. The iron work undoubtedly was produced in or near a foundry that had easy access to raw materials. Would be something to get the molds and dies of the more complicated parts like the hubs, to manufacture them yourself, just due to a dwindling supply of original parts I imagine. Good to see folk enjoying your channel as much as I do and getting to meet you in person. Thanks for sharing sir, hope you and your family have a great day.

  15. Thanks for every video that you show us!! It is such a pleasure to watch you shape a piece of wood or metal and restore a piece of history!!Thanks Again !! R and W

  16. I have but one regret, because of two things, I will never be one of your visitors.
    First, my age, the wrong side of 75, the second, I live the wrong side of 4,000 miles away. But still get one heck of a lift once a week sharing your weekly vids.
    Of course, you could always take your show on the road, I'm sure you have enough wagons!

  17. G’day and well done thanks for showing how you fit the hub and spokes in always in joy watching your channel it’s like a look into the past kind regards John Kinnane

  18. As a time served wood machinist may I suggest you only take a half-cut each time with the morticer? It reduces the wear on the cutter and the reduces the deflection force placed on the wood.

  19. though in another country (Australia), love to open your youtube channel to hear and see all your high quality workmanship skills in coach building. Not a traveller "BUT" If ever came to your country would love to meet you in person and see up close the factory.

  20. When using your press why do you jerk on the handle on the way down, I thought that would give you an incorrect feel on what and how you are pressing, to my way of thinking just one action would be better as you can feel and hear how hard the press is working before it bottoms out, just wondering.

  21. You make my day. No doubt you have thought of this but I think a small tube with multiple holes and quick disconnect to your air supply would greatly assist blowing the sawdust from your Mortiser which is a pleasure to watch in operation.

  22. The book is a very nice gesture, by the way the guy that made the morticing jig has a fairly intelligent knot attached to his shoulders, have a great day.

  23. Visitors! What fun. The kids really looked like they liked it. Good for you. Always enjoy the videos and the presentation. Very relaxing to watch and enjoy.

  24. Rarely do i come across some thing i dont know but watching your channel im understanding and leaning some great facts and understanding more of your trade . And your doing so much to preserve the art of wogon building .

  25. Amazing precision work what explains why the wheel is rather new. The heart and soul of the wheel is the mechanism which reduces friction enough for the wheel to roll under a heavy load. This called for some precise fitting of the wheel to the axle. It had to be snug enough that the wheel wouldn’t wobble off the axle, but loose enough to allow for greasing. The website Ancient Origins says that wheels weren’t invented until sometime in the 4th millennium BCE because at that time the technology was available to make metal tools to do the fine fitting of the axle to the wheel. Before the invention of metal tools, you couldn’t make precise enough fittings. Native Americans never had metal tools, therefore they could not make functional wheels.

  26. Always wondered if folks stopped by to have a look around and to meet you. I sure wish I would have stumbled across your video's when I lived and worked in Casper WY. I sure would have ventured up your way to meet you!
    Also, have you found it harder to get your work done with more and more folks stopping by?

  27. Thanks once more Mr. Engels! We are genuinely blessed to be able to watch as you methodically work your way through the various tools and parts, to bring your projects together! I'm curious – it would seem that a "dead-blow" hammer or two, might come in quite efficient and useful as you're driving in those spokes. I'd enjoy reading your perspective.

  28. Yes, those hubs and their manufactures "had a better idea" when producing them. Interesting though that no one company got together and said, why don't we all make the same dimensions so the spokes would fit all of them. Like a spare tire, a spare spoke could then be used without any concern for the make of the hub itself. Or, maybe it was they wanted their own dimensions so the folks had to come to them for parts. Actually, that still happens in today's manufacturing.

  29. It must give you great pleasure knowing people watch your videos and your skills knowing that one day they might be able to meet you in person and to put a comment in your visitors book knowing that they are there for everyone to see and keep the videos coming as we love watching a master at work 😀😀👍👍

  30. Wish I had the wherewithal to write my name in your little visitors book, But being in England, Just a tad too far.

  31. Thanks again for letting us watch! I do have a question: When I was taught to use a chisel mortiser to create a mortise, I was taught to first plunge one side of the mortise and then plunge the other edge and finally plunge out the middle. The thinking was that this would minimize the deflection of the chisel at the final end of the mortise. You just plunge across. Do you find your machine is just good enough that deflection is not an issue? Admittedly my mortiser is nowhere near the quality of yours! Or do you find that deflection is just not enough of an issue for the type of work you do to warrant being concerned about it? Or is there some other factor that I am not aware of?

    Thanks in advance for any reply you might make. One day I hope to sign your guest book!

  32. You Sir are a man among men! Love how warm & friendly you are with all of your fans. In person and online! It's pretty darn rare these days!

  33. I really do not have anything particular to day here. Not that this has stopped me in the past. Just always therapeutic to watch you work. Been under the weather lately, this is good medicine.

  34. You are very much appreciated and we thank you for sharing your work with us! One day in the not so distance future I might mosey on up there and say Hi, too!

  35. The variation between manufacturers. As I recall someone came up with the idea of standardization of parts, but it was twentieth century. Nice meeting other viewers. Noticed how restorers hang on to parts. When they don't make them anymore they can't ordered. Thanks for sharing.

  36. Just love your videos. The camera work is excellent, allowing us to see just what you are doing and your patient commentary is most informative. I also appreciate your skill in the many trades you employ in your work.

  37. I have just recently started watching your videos and I am truly impressed with you knowledge and the skills that you have honed over the years you have obviously been doing this work. I would be interested in learning and doing this type of restoration work but alas I live far away from Wyoming in Indiana. If you know anyone in the south eastern portion of Indiana that does this type of work I would be very interested in any contact information you could provide.

  38. My grandfather was pretty poor in the 1940s and he did his own blacksmithing, shoeing, and wagon repair. His traveler was just a board cut into a circular shape and tacked in the center to the side of a stick for a handle. I wish I had been old enough to see how he did it, but watching your channel has taken much of the mystery out of it for me. Thanks!

  39. Mr. Engels, search facebook marketplace, Brandon, ms. antique new old stock wagon wheels, you may like these!!

  40. I admit to having dreamed of stopping by sometime. I'm glad to hear I might not be seen as a nuisance if I ever do.

  41. Hopefully one of the kids that stops by will get inspired to work with their hands building things.
    Thanks for another good video.

  42. I am showing these videos to my sons so they appreciate the craftsmanship that made our country. Thank you for sharing your skill with us all!

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